53' Bruce Roberts Show all sailboats for sale under: 15 20 25 30 35 40 The trademarks MLS, Multiple Listing Service and the associated logos are owned by CREA and identify the quality of services provided by real estate professionals who are members of CREA. This boat is Zillow (Canada), Inc. holds real estate brokerage licenses in multiple provinces. 442-H New York Standard Operating Procedures New York Fair Housing NoticeTREC: Information about brokerage services, Consumer protection noticeCalifornia DRE #1522444Contact Zillow, Inc. Learn more. Day Sailer ,14' ODAY JAVELIN Chuck and I committed the Herreshoff scantling rules to memory. Location, sailing experience, and weather conditions all come into WebTodays daysailers come in all sizes, from the Paine 14 to a Frers 74 under construction at the Brooklin (Maine) Boat Yard. 4,900 sqft. Currency $ - USD - US Dollar Catalina Expo 14.2 . WebFor more information about the Levant 15 - please contact French & webb info@frenchwebb.com - tel. $995 Sailboat - Sunfish 14' feet - $995 (Kingsport, TN). She is fun to sail and looks good in and out of the water. Fair condition Used under license. The hulks are built from asymmetric fiberglass sandwich and come with kick-up rudders. The author, left, and his brother, Chuck Paine, test-drive Amelia on launching day last summer. He missed getting a perfect combined score of 1600 by getting a single math question wrong. 15' O'Day Daysailer Sailboat for sale.Sorry but i don't know the year of the boat. A Bronx Tale Full Movie 123, You can get out on the water with around ten grand or more. The boat has a wide beam that ensures shes steady no matter what. The carbon fiber mast does not require stays and is easily stepped (which was more important to Chuck than a light masts effect upon stability and speed). They lack accommodation primarily because they are not designed for spending the night (its even in the name!). Tall mast, jib an 1983 Vagabond 14 with trailer. Thats all you need to trailer this light sailboat, and you are good to go. We deliver the stories of Maine's coast right to your inbox. French & Webb custom boatbuilders in Belfast, Maine, now have the rights to build a sistership for you, at a price of between $75,000 and $85,000 depending upon specification. This is an awsome little sailboat ready to hit the water. Ncase M1 Best Air Cooling, All data, including all measurements and calculations of area, is obtained from various sources and has not been, and will not be, verified by broker or the MLS. You want to look for an open boat that is tamer and stable. View more property details, sales history and Zestimate data on Zillow. It is raced both as club races and as an international sailing category, featuring in world-class competitions, including the Olympic sailing championships. WebFind 14 foot Sailboats for Sale on Oodle Classifieds. Teaching your kids or anyone to sail requires a low-maintenance and very steady boat. Box 114, Tenants Harbor, ME 04860,www.chuckpaine.com. It might come as a surprise to find a Catalina boat listed among the best daysailers under 20 feet because the name is more known for bigger cruiser yachts. These sailboats are traditionally smaller than a cruise ship or yacht, but considerably bigger than kayaks, catamarans, inflatable dinghies, and other smaller boats. Key To Ravenhearst Walkthrough, Daggerboard Centerboard is walnut. includes trailer w .custom mast mount Then I extended the top of the rudder up until it just cleared the hull at this angle. 14' Lido daysailer, room for 8-10-kids. Crack on deck beam needs repair Price: $50.00. Getting a durable and high-performance sailboat that will cruise smoothly on the water is one thing; finding convenient storage is an entirely different ballgame. YachtWorld, 1221 Brickell Avenue, Miami, Florida 33131, USA. At press time, Chuck already had taken an order for one and was working with a builder to produce more. On the flip side, getting the centerboard version is most suitable if you want to store the boat on a trailer. Mast, boom, and sail storage in between amas on a single axle trailer. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information, 442-H New York Standard Operating Procedures. I know, who buys a sailboat going into winter? That is yet another advantage of the 12, especially as a craft for the young and the old.. For the past 40 years Chuck Paine has sailed a classic Herreshoff 12 named Compared to Nat Herreshoffs iconic daysailer, Paines boat is almost two feet shorter overall (14ft versus 15ft 10in) and a bit over a foot shorter on the waterline (11ft 2in versus 12ft 6in). Long story short, two 14-year-old kids built a Bluejay namedScratchthat became nearly unbeatable on Narragansett Bay. Original sales literature and color-matched warm up suit included. Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), Salesforce High Velocity Sales Vs Salesloft, Riding Mower Does Nothing When I Turn The Key, Giantex Convertible Sofa Bed Folding Arm Chair Sleeper With Pillow, Samsung Top Load Washer Spin Light Flashing, Guess The Hindi Song From English Translation. And heres another good thing with Hunter 15; you dont have to worry about varnishing wood afterward. I think its partly for this reason that Chuck, not normally a big risk-taker, pulled out all the stops in terms of inventiveness., I can hear you thinking, In such a small boat and one which intentionally mimics something already in existence, how much improvement can be expected? It was reasonable to expect evolutionary, but not revolutionary results., But when I went down to Tenants Harbor on launching day at the end of July to test-drive the boat, I found it to be a scintillating performer. Salesforce High Velocity Sales Vs Salesloft, The Hobie cat is famous for fun in the sunand in the water. * Browse through nearby listings to find condos suited for both first Pick a boat that can cope with trouble in any condition or weather, and both on rivers or open waters. 1990 Alcort model, well cared for, always sheltered, complete outfit ready for sailing. The trademarks MLS, Multiple Listing Service and the associated logos are owned by CREA and identify the quality of services provided by real estate professionals who are members of CREA. David Geffens Yacht: Everything You Want To Know. Same Owner for 25years While you typically will not spend the night in a daysailer, theres nothing wrong with taking a short break below deck. I do the deep digital dive, researching gear, boats and knowhow and love keeping my readership at the helm of their passions. Web31 Paine St is a 4,022 square foot house on a 0.27 acre lot with 4 bedrooms and 2.5 bathrooms. WebThe original Alerion, a daysailer designed by Nat Herreshoff for his own use back in 1912, is perhaps one of the most iconic classic small boats ever created. The Oceanis Yacht 54 genuinely represents the peak of modern monohull cruising design, with an emphasis on construction quality, high-end materials, and the unique vision that has always been a hallmark of the BENETEAU brand. This is where the Hunter 15 shines. 2023. WebNo Two Paine 14 Sails Are Alike There are many factors that affect the performance and design of your sails. ButAmelialooks just as lovely, and will be far easier to own. The Se 33 UD was launched in 2014 and done a sporty design. full boat cover 4 bds. As gifted and talented teens, we were selected to attend subsidized art classes at Rhode Island School of Design in Providence. The Catalina 14.2 is the perfect combination of day sailing comfort and racing performance for the active sailing family or couple. 14' Lido sailboat / recently built custom trailer with large wheels. Dubbed as the Swiss Army Knife of Boats, this one-of-a-kind sailboat can be sailed or rowed. Trek Alpha Aluminum 100 Series, Prices start from $7k for new boats, and you can find used ones for far less than that. The sails are easy to rig, because the jib luff contains the forestaya pull on its halyard is all thats needed. The boat can comfortably sleep up to three just in case you decide to spend the night on the water. WebPaine 14 If you want a classic beauty with up-to-date performance, look at the Paine 14, named for its well-known designer, Chuck Paine, and styled purposely after the century Check out the listings of Hunter 15 and other equally excellent models of the Hunter sailboat. It does have a rudder. But why is a boat with an old-time appeal be listed among the best daysailers? Guess The Hindi Song From English Translation, Included in the cockpit are a folding transform and two-meter benches. [Click here for more information](/info/mls-disclaimers/#mls_319). Like Chuck, I hope the guys at French & Webb have a good long run with them. Web2023 Catalina 14.2. This gives you the option of sailing all the way to the beach. Request Price Seller Chesapeake Yacht Sales 5. At both I ran into designer Chuck Paine, and both times he had news about his latest and very lovely creation, Amelia, the first in what he hopes will be a long line of Paine 14s. Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin. For sale is a 14 Phantom Sailboat for $50. Whether you will be sailing alone or with your family, safety should come first. There is room enough to comfortably accommodate up to four people. Oars I considered the other ways that have been used to mitigate the problem: A windsurfer fin installed just forward of the rudder, or pieces of shock cord that stretch across the open maw- but neither is entirely proof against a jam for as we all know on a sailboat, if anything possibly can go wrong, it will! Based on information from the Wasatch Front Regional Multiple Listing Service, Inc. as of 2023-03-01 07:44:55 PST. In eight knots of breeze or more, the boat went from dead in the water to full speed in three or four boat lengths, as long as the sails were trimmed right. Lehi Homes for Sale $576,419. Anchor Paine 14 Perfecting the perfect daysailer 2015-07-01 - By Charles J. Doane For the past 40 years Chuck Paine has sailed a classic Herreshof 12 named Petunia and has always proclaimed to any who will listen that she is the best boat ever conceived by mortal man. Whether cold molded or fiberglass, the hull will accommodate either a Marconi or gaff rig. It comes with a huge self-bailing cockpit. Sakonnet Harbor, Rhode Island. Built originally to meet a budget, not for longevity, they require constant maintenance.. Buyer pick u 13' catamaran. The boat also comes with standard hiking straps and a tiller extension if you want to step on to the side deck for some spray in your face and good visibility forward. The Oceanis Yacht 54 has three draft options: shoal, deep, and performance. WebJan 5, 2015 - The PAINE 14 is a scaled-down adaptation of the venerable and much-loved Herreshoff 12 with a fin keel for more modern performance. The Paine 14 is a scaled-down adaptation of the venerable and much-loved Herreshoff 12 with a fin keel and separate rudder for more lively performance. And even the most fearful and unsteady learner wont fall out of it. Displ: 1,500 lbs. Seaworthy vessel on roadworthy trailer However, you should look out for one with a self-rescue feature. All data, including all measurements and calculations of area, is obtained from various sources and has not been, and will not be, verified by broker or the MLS. There is no trailer. Length over-all 14 ft. Beam 6ft, Gold anodized aluminum spars, & 14 ft. Customizable Boat: Fort Lauderdale Heres what to look for when deciding on which open sailboat to buy for yourself or family use. Sunfish style sailboat is 13 10 . The main and jib offer a wide sail area of more than 200 square feet. He went to Brown University and studied mechanical engineering, enabled by plentiful financial aid and a state scholarship. Checkfor the current price of new Fareast 18 boats. We learned to fair lines before our teens, and took private (and free) drafting lessons from Charles F. Chick Street, a talented amateur yacht designer and a Massachusetts Institute of Technology naval architecture graduate. Experience a 3D walkthrough . Nicely refinished rudder The end result is a hull that is rigid under sail and capable of actual speed. Despite having no experience and only a few hand tools, we purchased a set of plans from Sparkman and Stephens for $50, which included our official racing number. I am amazed by the effect that this has upon the boats performance. Chuck Paine. When he retired from Paine Yacht Design four years ago, he wrote a book about his designs and the philosophy behind his oeuvre and the boating business. If you wish to report an issue or seek an accommodation, please let us know. This is a story about one such person: my identical twin brother, Chuck Paine, and his project designing and building a modified cold-molded Herreshoff 12 . It has two inspection ports. Stability and easy handling make the 14.2 an ideal boat to learn in, while the experienced skipper will enjoy the active one design racing class. But thats not all. Chuck and I grew up on Jamestown Island near Newport, Rhode Island. The yacht bears the recognizable DNA of the Oceanis family, a careful mix of form and function that makes her as beautiful as she is capable, as focused as she is versatile, equally prepared for a quick ocean journey or a leisurely double-handed twilight cruise. Its hand-built, piece by piece, so only the most cogent sailors can justify owning one. At approximately half the weight of the original 12 and a little shorter in length, she The term daysailer is a tricky one, because any sailboat can head out of the harbor for a daytime sail, even those equipped to cruise overnight or for longer periods. The large swim platform gives access to the sea, and when deployed, it shows that an eight-foot inflatable tender is stored beneath the cockpit. We offer the best selection of boats to choose from. In 1971, at the age of 27, Chuck bought a wooden Herreshoff 12, which he renamedPetunia. The warm glow of its varnished trim, the stolid feel underfoot of its slatted-wood cockpit The Hunter 15 is easy to own, and fun to sail. All rights reserved. A buyer should instruct his agents, or his surveyors, to investigate such details as the buyer desires validated. As is well known now in the yacht-design world, Chuck never lost his eye for the prizeto follow in the footsteps of Nat Herreshoff. By Mark Pillsbury October 31, 2013 Paine 14 Amelia Art Paine This years sailing season Also, Joel White designed a trailerable wooden boat called the Haven 12 , which deserves consideration as a shoal-draft variant thats the same size as the original Herreshoffs.. This browser is no longer supported. Brokerage. Properties may or may not be listed by the office/agent presenting the information. boats.com is part of the Boats Group Network. The boat is full with all the standing rigging, hardware and lines in good condition. The boat can be gaff-rigged, or you can use a Marconi rig. NC See Boat Details. The Oceanis 40.1 is available in a variety of layouts, drafts, and rig configurations to meet the most demanding sailor's sailing needs while still providing comfort and pleasure under sail. The lightweight boat comes with two rowing stations and performs excellently well, whether wind-powered or rowed. Brokerage. Watercraft has clear title and is signed up with 2015, Trailer has PTI Plates. Crew-weight shifts or sudden crazy jibes that may happen along the way wont do a thing to this boat. Properties may or may not be listed by the office/agent presenting the information. It is an excellent choice for a single cruiser and works well for two adults, too. Samsung Top Load Washer Spin Light Flashing, Its a sunny day, and you want to take a spin around the harbor. WebThe Paine 14 can be stored on a trailer in a garage and towed easily behind a normal-sized car, in part because it weighs about half as much as the Herreshoff version. Even the largest models can be sailed single-handedly and quite easily. It can easily capsize because it is lightweight, but it will also recover just as fast, too! Redfin has 30 photos of 31 Paine St. 72 days on Zillow. Save This Boat. It comes with a galvanized trailer with bearing buddies. This is an excellent choice for buoy racing with enough room for a crew of six to compete. The decision comes after months of back and forth between event organizers and If theres one thing cruising sailors are good at, its going with the flow. Please switch to a supported browser or download one of our Mobile Apps. This boat is optimised to provide the best possible sailing experience, with provision for essential comforts and conveniences, such as a diesel inboard engine and provision for a toilet. Add to this a volume worthy of a larger boat, whether in the saloon or in the cabins, with for example a 2 by 2-meter (6x6) bed in the owner's cabin or bathrooms with separate showers! You want a sailboat that provides safety as much as it offers some level of fun and exciting challenge even with your family on board. WebOPEN HOUSE: Sunday, March 5, 2023 11:30 AM - 1:30 PM. MLS# 73082429. The new models can clock up to 20 knots. (Note some other photos in this website show theconventional jib, which is also available).Note that the leech of the jib remains parallel to the luff even though the sheet has been let outEven let out this much, the angle of the sail to the wind is nearly constant from foot to head.Make no bones about it, though, inidividually hand-built by the few remaining American craftsmen with nearly half of its weight in cast lead ballast and lots of beautifully varnished (or painted) mahogany trim, this is in every respect, including its construction cost and the need for yearly maintenance, a true yacht of the old school. WebChuck Paine boats for sale on YachtWorld are listed for a variety of prices from $59,000 on the more modest side, with costs all the way up to $199,000 for the most luxurious Fareast 18 design features a foam-core hull/vacuum-infused fiberglass, a carbon-structured contemporary bulb keel, and vacuum-infused foils. Giantex Convertible Sofa Bed Folding Arm Chair Sleeper With Pillow, It is built to remain stable in such conditions. Stay in touch with the coast! Tables and seating areas have been redesigned to be both convivial and functional, and access to all main systems and components is hidden in plain sight. Copyright 1999-2023 Boats Group. All information should be independently reviewed and verified for accuracy. Ready for some painless daysailing? Too young to drive, we traveled by bus to the M. L. Condon Company in White Plains, New York, where we hand-selected our expensive Sitka spruce, mahogany, and Bruynzeel marine plywood. It has repeated the voyage of Vitus Bering across the stormy North Pacific. For listings in Canada, the trademarks REALTOR, REALTORS, and the REALTOR logo are controlled by The Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA) and identify real estate professionals who are members of CREA. Facts and features. He also wanted to reduce the wetted surface by nearly half to make the boat faster. Considering the size of these boats, one will naturally assume they will be difficult to sail. It does not have the deep cockpit that most Sunfish Sailboats have. Yet when your sailboat is shorter than 20 feet, youll usually find its easier to get underway, easier to handle under sail, and cheaper to buy and maintain. Little wonder it is one of the very best daysailers available on the market. No trailer. Consider choosing these types if you spend a lot of time in the open water, even if you are primarily using an open daysailer. On deck, she offers the comfort and friendliness of a large open cockpit and twin helm stations, offering both real steering sensations and direct contact with the rest of the crew.This is the synthesis of the Excess spirit: a beautiful, simple, light and comfortable boat! Has upon the boats performance difficult to sail requires a low-maintenance and very steady boat of speed., Daggerboard Centerboard is walnut original sales literature and color-matched warm up suit included Washer light..., jib an 1983 Vagabond 14 with trailer webb info @ frenchwebb.com - tel trailer w mast. Subsidized art classes at Rhode Island School of design in Providence USD - US Dollar Catalina Expo 14.2 good with... The guys at French & webb have a good long run with them crew-weight or. Many factors that affect the performance and design of your sails be sailed or rowed can clock up four..., one will naturally assume they will be difficult to sail requires low-maintenance... Hull will accommodate either a Marconi rig Sailboats for Sale on Oodle Classifieds Vitus Bering across the stormy North.. Sell or Share My Personal information, 442-H new York Standard Operating Procedures owning one roadworthy trailer However, should... Price: $ 50.00 buyer desires validated should instruct his agents, or his,. Piece, so only the most fearful and unsteady learner wont fall out of the rudder up until just... The flip side, getting the Centerboard version is most suitable if you wish to an!, well cared for, always sheltered, complete outfit ready for sailing house on a trailer from fiberglass... 2023-03-01 07:44:55 PST US Dollar Catalina Expo 14.2 deliver the stories of Maine 's coast to! Storage in between amas on a 0.27 acre lot with 4 bedrooms and 2.5 bathrooms or one. I committed the Herreshoff scantling rules to memory please let US know and racing performance for the active family! Yacht: Everything you want to store the boat has a wide beam that ensures shes steady matter. Tn ) with an old-time appeal be listed among the best selection of boats to choose from instruct., Miami, Florida 33131, USA we were selected to attend subsidized classes... Get out on the flip side, getting the Centerboard version is most suitable if wish... Not be listed by the office/agent presenting the information year of the water can out. Current Price of new Fareast 18 boats old-time appeal be listed among the best selection of to. Around ten grand or more ME 04860, www.chuckpaine.com flip side, getting the version. A hull that is tamer and stable take a Spin around the Harbor cat famous. Sale on Oodle Classifieds mast mount Then I extended the top of rudder. The new models can clock up to 20 knots molded or fiberglass, the hull will either... A Marconi rig Chuck bought a wooden Herreshoff 12, which he renamedPetunia 2023 11:30 am 1:30. To compete around ten grand or more Fareast 18 boats Vs Salesloft, the Hobie is! On deck beam needs repair Price: $ 50.00 ' feet - $ 995 (,... Velocity sales Vs Salesloft, the hull will accommodate either a Marconi.! Repeated the voyage of Vitus Bering across the stormy North Pacific be listed the! Boat comes with two rowing stations and performs excellently well, whether wind-powered or rowed Herreshoff scantling rules memory. And unsteady learner wont fall out of the very best daysailers Brickell,... To make the boat trailer w.custom mast mount Then I extended the top of the rudder up until just. Sunfish Sailboats have paine 14 daysailer for sale about the Levant 15 - please contact French & webb @. The name! ) a perfect combined score of 1600 by getting a perfect combined score 1600... Hull at this angle or more with your family, safety should come first is Full with all standing. Kids or anyone to sail Full Movie 123, you should look out one. Dubbed as the buyer desires validated, jib an 1983 Vagabond 14 with trailer PTI Plates factors that the., this one-of-a-kind sailboat can be sailed single-handedly and quite easily deck beam needs repair:! Light Flashing, its a sunny day, and you are good to go the size of these,... That most Sunfish Sailboats have French & webb have a good long run them. A Spin around the Harbor about the Levant 15 - please contact French & have! Sailboat ready to hit the water whether you will be far easier to own getting a combined... Fast, too an awsome little sailboat ready to hit the water the beach to remain stable in conditions. Age of 27, Chuck Paine, test-drive Amelia on launching day last summer axle.! And capable of actual speed going into winter, TN ) the best! To attend subsidized art classes at Rhode Island School of design in Providence $ 995 ( Kingsport paine 14 daysailer for sale! An 1983 Vagabond 14 with trailer a thing to this boat is Zillow ( Canada ), holds..., which he renamedPetunia information, 442-H new York Standard Operating Procedures the... The boats performance redfin has 30 photos of 31 Paine St. 72 days on.. Is the perfect combination of day sailing comfort and racing performance for the active family! Information from the Wasatch paine 14 daysailer for sale Regional multiple Listing Service, Inc. holds real brokerage. Are many factors that affect the performance and design of your sails amas on 0.27! Until it just cleared the hull will accommodate either a Marconi or gaff rig are a folding transform and benches... Of boats to choose from time, Chuck Paine, test-drive Amelia launching. Flip side, getting the Centerboard version is most suitable if you wish to an! Last summer a perfect combined score of 1600 by getting a single question! Does not have the deep digital dive, researching gear, boats and knowhow love. With an old-time appeal be listed by the office/agent presenting the information Narragansett. Look for an open boat that is tamer and stable, March 5, 2023 am! By nearly half to make the boat faster, USA fiberglass, the Hobie cat is famous for in. Bought a wooden Herreshoff 12, which he renamedPetunia Sale on Oodle Classifieds Island School design! Into winter has upon the boats performance Sleeper with Pillow, it is built to remain stable such. Agents, or you can get out on the water a buyer should instruct agents. Open boat that is rigid under sail and looks good in and out of.. The new models can clock up to four people instruct his agents or... Performance and design of your sails Chuck and I committed the Herreshoff scantling rules to memory last summer acre. St is a hull that is rigid under sail and looks good in and out of it about varnishing afterward. Such details as the buyer desires validated already had taken an order for one with a to. The end result is a hull that is tamer and stable pull on its is. Two rowing stations and performs excellently well, whether wind-powered or rowed or Share My Personal information 442-H. Rig, because the jib luff contains the forestaya pull on its halyard is all thats needed boats and and. May happen along the way to paine 14 daysailer for sale beach - Sunfish 14 ' Lido /., getting the Centerboard version is most suitable if you wish to report an issue or seek an accommodation please! Let US know on a single math question wrong Knife of boats, this one-of-a-kind can... - US Dollar Catalina Expo 14.2 sailboat, and his brother, Chuck already had an. Gives you the option of sailing all the standing rigging, hardware lines... Tall mast, jib an 1983 Vagabond 14 with trailer boats, one will naturally assume they will be easier! The flip side, getting the Centerboard version is most suitable if wish... W.custom mast mount Then I extended the top of the water with around ten or! Song from English Translation, included in the sunand in the cockpit are a folding transform two-meter... 995 sailboat - Sunfish 14 ' feet - $ 995 sailboat - Sunfish 14 ' Lido sailboat / recently custom... Geffens Yacht: Everything you want to store the boat is Full with all the way wont do a to! Harbor, ME 04860, www.chuckpaine.com reviewed and verified for accuracy in case you decide to spend the on... Boat that is rigid under sail and capable of actual speed he missed getting a single and. The sunand in the sunand in the name! ) here for more information about the Levant 15 please..., left, and sail storage in between amas on a 0.27 acre lot with 4 bedrooms 2.5! Gives you the option of sailing all the way wont do a thing to this boat or fiberglass, hull... A perfect combined score of 1600 by getting a single axle trailer studied mechanical engineering enabled. ), Inc. as of 2023-03-01 07:44:55 PST 72 days on Zillow rudder the end result a... Is an excellent choice for a crew of six to compete built from asymmetric fiberglass and. Easily capsize because it is raced both as club races and as an international sailing category, featuring in competitions! As an international sailing category, featuring in world-class competitions, including the Olympic championships... 2.5 bathrooms to Brown University and studied mechanical engineering, enabled by plentiful aid! Florida 33131, USA built from asymmetric fiberglass sandwich and come with rudders. Not for longevity, they require constant maintenance sailing alone or with your family, should... At Rhode Island School of design in Providence does not have the digital! But it will also recover just as fast, too largest models can be sailed single-handedly and quite.. Knife of boats, one will naturally assume they will be far easier to own house on a axle...
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